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April 26 to May 5, 2021
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DAY EIGHT
will be available Monday, May 3.
"Widening Circles to Those of Difference"
Today’s teaching session and guided meditation are intended to help you extend your care and compassion to vulnerable beings who might seem unreal, distant, or different.
Your challenge today is to talk to a person who identifies differently than you do. Please share your experience with our Facebook community!
More people today may be practicing mindfulness than ever before. But what does that really mean for the state of our world? In this inspiring interview, Tara Brach speaks with Jon Kabat-Zinn about the true power of mindfulness to transform our lives and the planet, discussing how we as a society must learn to confront suffering and injustice, and the revolution in consciousness that is necessary if we are to right the ship.
Session highlights:
- Awakening compassion and clarity through an understanding of our interconnectedness
- How every moment is an opportunity to be fully present and embodied
- Why mindfulness needs to include "heartfulness"
- Making mindfulness sacred again
Jon Kabat-Zinn, PhD, is professor of medicine emeritus at the University of Massachusetts Medical School, where he founded the Center for Mindfulness in Medicine, Health Care, and Society in 1995, and its world-renowned Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) Clinic in 1979. He is the author of 14 books, including the bestsellers Full Catastrophe Living; Wherever You Go, There You Are; and Mindfulness for Beginners, and the four-volume update of Coming to Our Senses (2018/2019). His books are published in over 40 languages. His work has contributed to a growing movement of mindfulness into mainstream institutions such as medicine, psychology, health care, neuroscience, schools, higher education, business, social justice, criminal justice, prisons, the law, technology, government, and professional sports.
- How do you remain mindful and in “wise relationship” to the challenges you see in your personal life or in the larger scheme of things?
- When do you find it more difficult to “stay sane” when provoked or agitated?
© 2021 SOUNDS TRUE · ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
What a fabulous meeting between these two great teachers! Really showed us the two wings of the Dahrma!!! Thank you so much Tara and Jon for the exceptional session!
Beyond powerful. Much gratitude to all who have given us this exposure to waking up. Simply put ethics, integrity, love is attention/awareness to what is. Was I aware of how I brushed my teeth, ate my breakfast, spoke to my co-workers, my thoughts. Is a family living in a car or a homeless person able be aware in this way. Probably not. But there are those of us who can. That one moment we are aware sends “love” and “gives “love” to all that is. The planet, people and the entire universe. Energy is energy. Awareness and attention is energy. Awareness is “love”. All peoples who saw this video can give, can give in the simplest way. By paying attention then listening with their heart for direction.
Thank you for your beautiful words!
Some interesting ideas but I found it challenging listening to Jon Kabat-Zinn saying “we need to shut up and listen” in one breath and in the other talking over Tara and taking up the vast majority of space in the discussion. An interesting demonstration of male privilege in action. My emotional reaction to this meant I found it hard to take on many of the messages he was trying to share.
And how wonderful it is to be able to learn how Tara handled this. The contrast in approach also deepened my appreciation for Tara’s approach because it’s definitely what resonates so deeply with me and my constitution.
Absolutely, Jackie. Me, too!
Yes, me too, Jackie. I have spent most of my life surrounded by many people with his approach, and only just now am waking up to how deeply buried my sense has been that I ” should be more assertive” or “shouldn’t be so sensitive.” Even though I realize that my reactions to his style provide material to work with, it is also reassuring to read comments like yours and so many others on this thread!
I agree.
Yes, sorry I didn’t read your comment before commenting. Interesting how some of us have an allergic reaction to his behavior while others seem to be fine with it….
hi Fran 😉
Hi Jenny! What a nice surprise to run into you here. Are you liking this series?
I didn’t have an allergic reaction to how I noticed he talked over Tara and how he interrupted her, just noticed it. I was still able to take in the wisdom and insight he shared. Tara was very poised and open and she modeled what’s possible. I think it comes from her having a deep respect and honor for the speakers.
Same, same!
Interesting that in some ways, you, like me, maybe because of my maleness, were able to understand, “take in” what JKZ was saying because you were NOT sensitive to what many females are in our society. Those that are aware and still open-minded to fully listen are on higher ground.
Yes! I felt all my resistance and resentment and judgments rise up of ‘older white men’ preaching from the Ivy League pulpit. It felt so hierarchical and lacking in shared wisdom synergy and heart full connection between two great teachers and leaders.. Familiar.
I want to explore more the duality created in me by my judgments; and reflect on “2 doors, one room” to question my perception of blaming him and making him wrong/rude/dismissive .
His Point: “I” may be DIFFERENT then “YOU”. But “WE” are “ALL HUMAN BEINGS” (ONE TOGETHER). That’s the WHOLE. That’s the BIG Picture we all should have & strive for (NON -DUALISM). Several of these presentations have been all about. “ME” & “OTHER” which is the DUALISM he talks about & will continue to divide us. Yes, we do need conversations to begin to know people who are different from us. But it should start from a Heartfelt Compassion of “WE” / “ONENESS” perspective which Mindfulness gives.
Elizabeth Lesser writes in her book, BROKEN OPEN: “It’s not either or, but both and more.” Seems anything we do not accept as “is” is a limitation on our part.
I agree he never “shut up and listened” in this dialogue.
Did not see that as for me they felt deeply in harmony and accord with each other throughout the communion of minds, so I put back to you ,Who is perceiving this ?
Yes, and in that, I noticed how Tara ‘adopted’ John’s style of ‘interruption’.
Also as expression of being in harmony and accord with him. Like a mutual permission to talk over each other:)
Another aspect could be technology as in situations, where ‘sound delay’ plays role in creating a gap between hearing the other speak & responding. Resulting in speaking over.
It’s known as verbal bullying. I hoped that there was a delay in their connection that caused that talking over but unfortunately there were too many instances when he ran right over Tara, apparently what he had to say was more important than being kind.
Yes. I struggled with what appeared to me to be a feeling of superiority. White male privilege. I struggle with this in my own house and have begun tomrealize how it has turned me into a sort of martyr. This challenge is helping me to understand how I let this affect me.
Hello Amy… I think we share a similar behavior pattern. I have a challenge Advocating for myself and being my best friend when it comes to relationships. You may want to read my post if it makes any sense to you? I would like to suggest a prayer for mindfulness that also includes being a soldier to one’s truth and personal conviction.
Me too. Seeing all these comments and how the challenge is shared by many of us helps me to consider getting over this. It’s new territory for me, I sucked it up while my kids grew and now I’m bitter on the inside. I’m astonished how often these sessions are moving me to tears. This one sent me to bewilderment to “Oh no, this cannot be happening, he just wouldnt do that to Tara/us and he just kept doing it. Thanks to this forum I’ll give it a go to open a different door. Mercy.
Me too! Thank you for your comments I was feeling the same response, yet you’ve articulated I felt. I felt talked down to rather than joined.
How interesting, I felt the opposite. I’d tuned in to listen to Jon and found the interruptions difficult! I also found it hard to take in all the messages and will need to listen again. I will be recommending this to quite a few people,
Agree
Reading Jane’s POV makes me realize how our biases color our perception, which is what mindfulness emphasizes we overcome, I think.
I kept wishing that Tara would stop interrupting John! So we are an example, together, of needing to learn to see through each other’s eyes, perhaps.🙏🏻
I agree with you Deanna. I believe that Tara was attempting to simplify what Jon was saying to the listening audience and was focused on her interview agenda instead of letting it flow naturally and she did indeed interrupt him or change directions quite a few times. If it’s meant to be an interaction between two peope I’d say it was a fail but I took away so much from what he did say. I also think we need to remember how difficult it is to communicate digitally and I just think he was very excited to be there. And we all know Tara has the best intentions so I’m happy just to have the opportunity to listen to two of my favourite teachers.
I have yet to listen to this interview and for some reason went straight to the comments. I love both of these teachers and was saddened to read about people’s reaction. Your comment Deanna is helpful in that it reassures me that the message is what is important, not the way it’s delivered. I, too, have found Tara struggling in these interviews and I’ve totally disregarded it because I love her and her work – she’s a teacher of meditation and compassion and she is a world class healer, and not necessiraly an interviewer.
I hear what you are saying on the flow of intellectual expression, yet at the same time Kabat-Zinn failed to even let Tara (the interview if you will) finish a question. I have found it rather the opposite of mindful listening and like as many others have expressed here, I have felt frustration and resentment with a man talking over a woman, at times even coming off as correcting her. It may also have to do with me at times feeling like I’m not being heard or seen, and with my attachment and awe of Tara.
I must admit I am glad I am not alone in how my listening and taking some notes devolved into wondering how Jon Kabat-Zinn could continue to talk right over Tara Brach right up to the very end. On a positive note, this series has been a real gift.
Agreed 100%.
Amen! I was struck by his over zealousness and difficulty in sharing the floor with another. Maybe subconsciously because she was a women? Tara was very gracious! It is a great experience for me to see the actual personalities of the writers, activists, celebrities in real action, not just in their works, in a book or in a character.
Wow, harsh judgement… Precisely the subject of this day, on how to engage with the other. There’s a lot to learn
Tara was supposed to be interviewing Jon, not the other way around – it was Tara who was interrupting – I’m not sure you understand the format of these sessions…
Totally agree! I had to leave the conversation…
Totally agree! Thank you for commenting. I signed off early…
I absolutely agree.
My sentiments EXACTLY, Lucy! Privileged white male in action – “man-splaining.” I know all the right words and I can talk longer and louder than you.
Absolutely, Lucy. My sentiments exactly. Privileged white male “man-splaining.” “I can talk louder than you, drown you out and interrupt you at will.” Not a lot of sharing, but a lot of monopolizing. Also, I was picking up some aggression. Contrast this to the way Tara and Kristin Neff interacted. Night and day.
While I see what you mean and can understand how you felt that way, I think it’s interesting too to consider the general conversational awkwardness of talking on a webcam to someone with all the lagging and sometimes varied volume of what the video picks up. May or may not have felt a little different if they were in the same physical space but I do not know!
Yes..we should give him the benefit of the doubt! Could have been tech issue.
Exactly. It’s far different than actual face-to-face dialogue.
I found that hard too…he didn’t seem to be listening…they both talked over each other, so I wondered about a tech issue.
Good point re tech issue!
I had the exact same response.
As soon as there is a small time difference between two people talking over the internet, you don’t hear it when the other person starts talking too … . And that, rather than the idea that Jon would be so “dominant”, is probably what explains this. If not, Jon would do it in ALL his interviews (see YouTube), which isn’t the case at all.
So let’s just FEEL how irritating it is to see a man talking over a woman, for us living in a society where male dominance has been the norm for centuries, how painful also … but then remember that our thoughts aren’t necessarily true, and that we don’t always have to take things personally. Sometimes a technological problem can cause things like this too.
All the best to you – and yes, we WILL achieve full gender-equality, in the future!
I was disheartened by that dynamic as well despite Jon bringing up many important ideas around this movement. I found myself feeling uncomfortable when Tara tried to get a word in and was being spoken over. A missed opportunity for real listening.
I agree. I felt JKZ took over and was not listening to Tara.
Are you listening to the same session I am? Tara was supposed to be interviewing Jon, but basically took over the session. She was interrupting him, not the other way around.
Perhaps male privilege… or perhaps something else? I totally agree that in this interview Jon Kabit-Zinn did not exemplify being present. And I agree, your observation about his inability to listen is accurate. But bless his heart… who knows what is the cause of his inattention? I believe Jon Kabit-Zinn has a tremendously good heart, with integrity that is noble. Maybe he was just having a hard day? That said… I thank you for pointing out that the emperor (of mindfulness) has no cloths on (and has blundered terribly in mindful communication). Bless his dear, sweet heart.
I am sorry Tara did not confront Jon more directly… she seemed to be startled and disappointed… and I wish she had been more direct, and less conciliatory her in response. Jon is worthy of our respect and honoring of what he has brought to the teachings… and I believe he is also strong enough to withstand honest dialogue, which Tara did not offer. She stood down, and did not offer him compassionate confrontation… which might have benefited him and us more.
And at the same time, I bow to Tara… Jon is worthy of kind regard. Maybe this is what she wished to offer.
Thank you for this balanced, thoughtful and compassionate (towards “both sides”) comment, Pat.
I love and admire both of these teachers, and you have expressed a lot of my thoughts and feelings regarding this interview.
I agree with you re Tara confronting him;however, it would have been difficult and perhaps inappropriate in the format of the conversation. What I observed was a person who is deeply concerned about the direction in which our country and world are moving and wants people to take action. And I heard a person with an internal conflict between parts of himself—part of himself angry at himself for meditating and not being more of an “activist.” I hope he finds compassion for himself because imho self-compassion dissipates anger at oneself and others.
Because of this I saw Tara being compassionate toward him rather than becoming angry or confronting him. She was modeling what true self-compassion looks like and how it precludes anger. When we are able to do what Tara did we can use our energy to make a difference re the issues he was upset about. I think also his anger was from pain and grief about his and other’s grandchildren’s futures.
Yes! I was holding my breath every time Tara spoke because I was so aware that she was unlikely to be able to finish her thought. It felt disrespectful.
I thought I was the only one who observed this. I watched her conversation with Elizabeth Gilbert before this and it was a genuine exchange of ideas with no one talking over the other. I found it hard to digest the message. The virtual space in which they’re speaking might have something to do with this. Disappointing just the same.
I think it may have been hard for him to hear, he was excited to be there and felt passion about helping the world, and it is very difficult with technology to “time” the responses just right. I noticed on Sandra Oh’s interview that sometimes what she was saying would cut out when Tara was just murmuring “mmm hmm”, so I would miss half of Sandra’s sentence. So it’s not easy with the slight delay of microphones and technology. I think Tara handled it beautifully with grace. I had to listen to it again, as unfortunately I had read people’s comments ahead and so was “listening” for where he was talking over her rather than what he had to say. Fortunately I gave it a second try a couple of days later, told myself there were other potential explanations and to just ignore that part, and really enjoyed what he had to actually say.
Yes, I hear you Lucy and feel the same: triggered and shocked by Jon speaking over Tara and not listening. Feel a bit saddened, and also in awe and respect of how Tara maintains respect and heart fullness. I bow to Tara and the embodiment of the deep Feminine.
I so agree. Am still listening right now and thought I’d scroll the comments to see if anyone else felt this way or am I just reactive! I found JKZ to be so overbearing and self-righteous … at least I now know after hearing about him for decades, he’s not a teacher of interest for me. Felt sorry for sweet Tara to have to sit through his barrage.
I agree.
I had similar reactions. I found him difficult to listen to. He boasted, dominated and rambled. I wondered if he may have been unwilling to participate or pressured or rushed. It appeared rude.
What a ‘syncronistic’ moment!! I’m British living in France and am suffering from ‘Brexit’, it was refered to in todays’ talk. Because of brexit I learnt yesterday that we British had lost our right vote in the forthcoming municipal elections here in France. I went into a sort of panic, loss of freedoms, loss of rights, loss of all sorts of things etc. I tried the breath with a little success and then settled into a 20 minute mindful meditation which helped somewhat. The question of ‘how to remain sane’ crossed my mind last night after the meditation. I felt disappointed with myself, I’ve be meditating for perhaps 4 or 5 years now and following Tara and Jacks’ Mindful work for over a year. I tried RAIN and identified the fears of loss, abandonment and poverty again. I have a strong feeling of my higher self when in reasonable shape but last night was something else, I totally lost it! After I post this I shall return to my meditation practice and we shall see. This course is wonderful and all the interviews are so thought provoking, I thank from the bottom of my heart Tara and all the contributors. And Love to all the participants.
Oui, individuellement notre souffrance et grande. Nigel, je le lis à travers les mots livrés ici. Et s’ il s’agissait de ne pas se considérer comme Britannique, Français, Américain, ou Australien ou Africain, Japonais, Homme ou Femme, noir ou blanc que sais-je encore? Si là, là précisément où ça cogne dure, c’était ici, maintenant, que nous pouvions véritablement changer de point de vue. Être avant tout des êtres vivants où et qui que nous soyons sur terre, et connaître combien la souffrance vient de la séparation sous toutes ses formes… Oui l’humain fabrique avec ses vieux schémas, du Brexit et toutes sortes d’autres moyens de confirmer cette fausse vue : que les uns sont différents des autres, que certains sont meilleurs que d’autres, parce qu’ils sont d’ici et non pas d’ailleurs…
STOP, cette vision ne mêne nul part !! Nous le savons ! La pratique de la Pleine Conscience qui mêne l’humanité vers sa réalisation véritable, invite, exige de se savoir sur le même navire que quiconque, de réaliser la magnificence de cette planète où chacun touche la Grâce de Vivre de moment en moment tant que le souffle le traverse. La Vraie nature du Vivant unit tous les êtres vibrants et ce, dès maintenant, là où chacun se trouve, exactement ici.
Se “désidentifier” de SA nationalité semble ici la voie ultime pour vraiment avancer dans le nouveau monde dont nous parle Jon.
La souffrance est partout – la beauté, la grâce d’exister est aussi là. Cela fait suffisamment longtemps que nous vivons dans la discrimination, dans la séparation, en nous intéressant surtout à notre dimension historique. L’invitation de Jon et de Tara est un renversement radical. Par delà toute séparation, nous sommes unis. Incarner dès maintenant la Paix d’un esprit unifié, là où tout invite à pester; quel défis! Puissions-nous œuvrer en ce sens. Soutien du Dharma. Chemin sans complaisance.
Is there a way to translate your post to English,Catherine? I am not very tech savvy, but really interested in how Brexit is affecting everyone in Europe
She’s basically saying that we can try to not identify with our nationality so much, and accept that suffering is everywhere. Losing our political rights, for instance, is something that happens to so many people, in so many different places – not only to the British in France. And as in the end, we are all one, the suffering of those voting FOR Brexit is basically the same as ours too, even if it comes in a different “form”. If it’s ME who’s losing my political rights, I can easily feel a separation between me and those voters, and be angry at them. A dharma practice invites us to acknowledge that anger, NOT judge ourselves for feeling it, AND to then remember that the delusion that caused Brexit is human too, and that we too suffer from delusion, many times a day. What we need is to go sit and talk and listen to Brexit voters, all while not forgetting that both they and we ourselves are so much bigger than our negative emotions or nationality. Something like that … ?
Thank you for this contribution Ana, it confirms my translation of Catherine’s answer to me. May I assume you are english? I need to think deeper than I can at the moment as I can feel the feelings of both ‘sides’ are far deeper than we can imagine, much more so than the mere politics and the motives that are driving this amputation. For many of my generation who were born either during the WW2 or at end of it, it feels like a backwards step in the evolution of Europe as a peace loving state and constructive step in understanding our differing cultures and securing peace for the future, at least in Europe. My best wishes,
Dear Nigel… I am but an ignorant American… don’t know what it is to be British in France suffering from Brexit… but I understand panic about loss of freedom & rights, and not knowing how to proceed. I resonate with fears of loss and abandonment, and poverty. You are not alone in this boat. I take heart from your post, knowing that I am not alone. I am grateful to you for your dedicated practice which reminds me, I am among good people dedicated to continue to care deeply. Thank you… and blessings in friendship.
metta nigel …. it now is what it is
Absolutely fabulous, thank you both. Beautiful pointing.
John is another at the fantasy dinner party.