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Radical Compassion Challenge
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DAY EIGHT

will be available Monday, May 3.
"Widening Circles to Those of Difference"
Start Here
Start Here
Teaching and Guided Meditation with Tara Brach ​
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Today’s teaching session and guided meditation are intended to help you extend your care and compassion to vulnerable beings who might seem unreal, distant, or different.

Today's "Compassion in Action" Challenge
Today's "Compassion in Action" Challenge
Waking Up from Bias

Your challenge today is to talk to a person who identifies differently than you do. Please share your experience with our Facebook community!

Watch Now
Watch Now
Jon Kabat-Zinn | "How Mindfulness Can Heal the World"

More people today may be practicing mindfulness than ever before. But what does that really mean for the state of our world? In this inspiring interview, Tara Brach speaks with Jon Kabat-Zinn about the true power of mindfulness to transform our lives and the planet, discussing how we as a society must learn to confront suffering and injustice, and the revolution in consciousness that is necessary if we are to right the ship.

Session highlights:

Jon Kabat Zinn

Jon Kabat-Zinn, PhD, is professor of medicine emeritus at the University of Massachusetts Medical School, where he founded the Center for Mindfulness in Medicine, Health Care, and Society in 1995, and its world-renowned Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) Clinic in 1979. He is the author of 14 books, including the bestsellers Full Catastrophe Living; Wherever You Go, There You Are; and Mindfulness for Beginners, and the four-volume update of Coming to Our Senses (2018/2019). His books are published in over 40 languages. His work has contributed to a growing movement of mindfulness into mainstream institutions such as medicine, psychology, health care, neuroscience, schools, higher education, business, social justice, criminal justice, prisons, the law, technology, government, and professional sports.

Questions for Reflection
Questions for Reflection
Answer the following reflection questions in the comment field below:
  • How do you remain mindful and in “wise relationship” to the challenges you see in your personal life or in the larger scheme of things?
  • When do you find it more difficult to “stay sane” when provoked or agitated?
  • Cheryll says:

    You support polarization by calling out my/mine with regard to skin color and privilege. I belong to a cohort of white people who grew up poor, without educational opportunity, who did not own a home and who continue to be marginalized because our cohort is not named by celebrity. At 50, I fulfilled a lifelong dream of going to college and being the first person in my family, maternal and paternal, to achieve a college degree. I remain in debt, without regret, to a student loan that I continue to pay off at 75. To generalize by race eases the burden of privilege, perhaps. Thank you, Cheryll Willin

  • Kim says:

    This talk moved me. While hearing this talk, my heart hurt with pain for those who have been oppressed, abused and exploited in the US and abroad. The animals being exploited. Our Earth. A very sharp heart pain. I will need to meditate to differienciate the collective pain from my body’s pain after this talk, then TAKE ACTION. Thank you.

  • ST says:

    “One room many doors.” Thank you Tara and Jon. Such an opportunity for awareness. Blessings to all.

  • Ronna says:

    Jon sates “it took me 70 years to recognize my privilege” and he points out his race, educational background, etc. I wanted to shout at my phone “what about your gender?!?l He still has some awakening to do. But we all do – it’s a life long process for each of us.

  • Jacki says:

    Thank you, Jon and Tara, for giving your time, and sharing you wisdom.

  • Esperanza Suarez says:

    To remain mindful and in “wise relationship” to my challenges I remember to not take things personally and that I was or am in the “same boat” as any other human being. The hardest times to “stay sane” is when I feel not seen or felt as another human being.

  • JoAn says:

    So interesting to read all of these comments. My first feeling was that Tara interrupted Jon!! I am a long time admirer
    of Jon so maybe that colored my reaction. My daughter conducts interviews so I am going to watch again with her and get her reaction. I don’t know proper interviewing etiquette.
    I may report back.

  • Diane says:

    I am sad to notice that for someone who has studied mindfulness and now says after 74 years he has become aware of his privilege, Jon continually interrupts and seems to need to have his voice heard over having a mutual shared conversation with Tami.

  • John H says:

    Building on prior comments, I receive this video in a different tone than the prior zoom videos. I notice that I feel agitated with the tone and the delivery and the vocabulary. I don’t know if that was purposeful or the intent, or a surprising impact. I will reflect on this agitation, even with the support of RAIN and MBSR. In that way, this was helpful as always, thank you, namaste

  • Anne-Marie says:

    Thanks so much to Jon and Tara for this really important interview !

  • Brandy says:

    Bless him. He is brilliant and has made huge contributions.
    And these days I am coming out of my skin listening to male privilege steamrolling all conversations. This makes me really appreciate the conversational style of this program. Thank you Tara.

  • Clare says:

    Agree with you Lucy. Had to stop the video. He couldn’t even wait for her to ask the question she was leading into on many occasions before butting in. So unmindful and dispiriting.

  • Joana Franco says:

    Kabat-Zinn is just amazing! I love how clear and engaged he is, and how to the point his speech is. Self is the prison and we need to learn to inhabit the not knowing. Love this. Love Kabat-Zinn.

  • Holly Strope says:

    I’m not going to listen to someone who will resort to violence.
    You need to admit that men have been and are the iproblem
    historically.

  • Judy says:

    I found this to be a wonderful dialogue. As many have said they are both such wonderful mentors. The concept of we don’t know what we don’t know resonates fully.
    The technical issues were unfortunate…but I saw it as technical transmission delays and nothing else.

  • Kay says:

    I am generally in a state of mindfulness in my work as a therapist. However in my personal life when it comes to belonging and partnership I go to sleep so to speak. . I so much want to be seen and cherished that I sacrifice my truth and may even endanger myself. I become blind to my needs and boundaries for the sake of “other.” I believe it’s regression to a state of childhood delusion. That, If I’m loving and self sacrificing, I will be loved in return. At times the mantra “i used to think I needed to love and be loved, but now I know I am love” May not be The best message in all situations… However, In the realm of politics and what’s happening in the world and my relationship to it… it can reduce reactivity. Thank you.

    • Sara Lewandowski says:

      I find your mantra “I used to think I needed to love and be loved, but now I know I am love” so refreshing. So many times we hear that we need to give in order to receive, however, we are all interconnected and that balance of giving and receiving is often challenging to identify. To know that we “are all love” makes everything seem less complicated and more peaceful. Thank you for sharing this. It helped me today.

  • Lisa says:

    Jon Kabat-Zinn needs to learn to listen and be in dialogue. He seems utterly unaware that he dominates the “conversation”. Exhausting to experience. Least rewarding interview so far and stands in stark contrast to all the interviews with women.

  • Donna says:

    Really enjoyed this interview as well. Thank you! And just a note about what looked like talking over Tara. As someone who has been on the other end of online interviews, it can be hard when there is a delay and if both participants keep pausing, it makes it hard to have continuity in the conversation.

  • Sky says:

    In my view it was Tara who kept interrupting – isn’t she supposed to be the interviewer? In almost all these interviews she interrupts w/her own opinions, and doesn’t let the person finish their thought, which makes it hard to hear the person she’s supposed to be interviewing. Tami Simon, by contrast, actually interviews the person; she doesn’t interrupt and her presence is minimal.

  • Victoria Rivera Mckinley says:

    Thank-you all for speaking your truth and your commitment to the path. I enjoyed this talk, including the differences in communication styles of the two presenters. It demonstrated how awareness prevailed in moments of clash and differences. Tara brought her heart and Jon brought the message of different doors to the same place. For me this was an important message, often obscured by our attachment to our own views of what is right.

    Blessings and gratitude for the inspiration and nourishment the Dharma teachings bring to ur lives..

    • Chris says:

      Thank you for expressing how I feel after listening to this talk, only much more succinct and than I could have done….

  • Claudette says:

    I don’t agree with those who criticized Jon because he was interrupting Tara. I am disappointed with the session. I was with the impression that Tara was offering those sessions to give us a chance to hear others meditators how they manage to navigate through rough times in their life. All through the sessions, Tara was focused on her own needs and feelings. All through the beginning, it seems like if she was receiving therapy and telling her/his therapist who it was helping her. She want us to hear how good she is as a meditator therapist ! So far, very disappointed about the whole sessions.

  • Vines says:

    Jon Kabat-Zinn interrupts Tara too many times–a prime example of his using his white, male, heterosexual, MIT PHD privilege. He is not even a mediocre role model of what he is promoting. He never leave a break in the conversation for another person to speak.

  • Cat Kang says:

    I agree with the comments. White male privilege in action. And the obliviousness. I found myself recognizing how I normally react to white male privilege in action: “That I’m wrong.” Then I asked the questions that Tara had talked about in her lesson as I watched Jon, “What is it like being you? Where do you hurt?” An intriguing meditation for me, being a minority on two fronts: Asian and female.

  • jojo says:

    Wow! We really are hard-wired for the negative. I very much enjoyed and benefited from this presentation, as also, the others in this challenge. I have followed Jon for decades and this is the first time I heard such negative reactions. We all have much to learn. I am trying to understand my own feelings of separateness and be able to distinguish what is my own dualism. Learning to understand judgement and how to be with it will be a huge step for me.

  • Mana says:

    Wow. this has been quite a week. People of color who are whiter than me, I haven’t lived in America for a long time, and most of it was Hawaii.
    There is so much to be learned from every people from every place.
    I’m wondering what I’m not knowing I don’t know.. Or maybe I just haven’t thought about it.
    A very thought provoking week. Thank you.

  • Anna says:

    Tara was a true teacher in the grace she demonstrated with all of Jon’s interruptions. It took all of my mindfulness practice to just get to the end and just note the feelings of anger coming up at the discrepancy between what Jon was saying and how he actually acted in that interview. A real disappointment in terms of the teacher not walking the walk but Tara inspired–as always

    • Mountain Bear says:

      I think that was it for me, too…the seeming discrepancy between the words and actions in Jon’s interview. I got a lot out of Jon’s words, but also took a lesson in the power of listening, pausing, sharing space—and how deeply unconscious privilege shows up.

  • Susan says:

    Excellent perspective… thank you for sharing to help broaden my way of thinking & seeing

  • Carla Bentley says:

    How do I remain mindful and in “wise relationship” to the challenges I see in my personal life or in the larger scheme of things? I find it helpful to take 3 slow, deep breaths, say ‘it’s just a thought and I am not my thoughts’; I now will use RAIN and remember “many doors, same room”. . I am developing a real fondness of Tara’s stories that she shares – today the protection of the seagull who had the prisoners’ wings. I really like that. I find myself remembering her stories often in my experience of reflection and introspection.

  • Carla Bentley says:

    I do intend to listen to this convo again as the talking-over (which is partly due to the minor delay in relay on the wires between our hostess and her guest) created enough distraction that I missed some of the talking points. Great lesson for me though as my spouse frequently tells me to “Stop ‘interrupting’ him (with my response), he’s not done talking”..then repeats himself a few times. It’s the one thing I’m working on and not getting resolved as quickly as I’d like. John sounded so wound up and seemed to be coming from a place of great enthusiasm about his recent experience with others where the topic was related to structural change is needed to change the patterns we have been living with in our societies.

  • Sharon says:

    Sadly, my responses are exactly the same. I was so looking forward to hearing him as I greatly respect his work and my own experience with MBSR. The previous 7 interviews have so moved me and inspired me with their incredible humility and vulnerability, and love. Today, I felt judgement and self-righteousness and this did not sit with me in terms of my heart. So much intellectualization rather than heart. I hope John takes a look at all the interviews and sees why several of us reacted. I know his intentions are so good, perhaps his ego took too much liberty. Love to him, Tara and all of you..

  • Carla Bentley says:

    Wow. I find myself awakening each morning of this challenge, eager to tune in and hear what the topic of the day is. Before this though, my first conscious thought This Morning was “no one is an individual in this world”. Then a feeling of great peace. Now, after listening to Tara and John, I also feel some excitement and hope. Yet as I do live my life in a pretty insulated (privileged) manner, I wonder how I might expand my awareness of ”what is like to be you” to active participation. Does anyone have any personal recommendations for particular organizations or activities that are widely available?

  • Jane Cousins says:

    A deep gratitude to both Tara and John for sharing their work with such care. While I saw the observation of Tara being interrupted I wondered to what extent that was a direct result of the technology used in their virtual set up and the resulting time lag of a few seconds . He may simply may not have heard her talking Perhaps something the tech support folks food look at. I do hope these two fabulous teachers will share their conversations with us again.

  • Yonca ULUG says:

    I realized that, even though I recognized Jon’s interruption and having difficulty in listening to Tara, I remained witnessing it not letting to trigger me. I am surprised to see how non-judgemental I could keep myself through it. Once it was a chance to acknowledge it is all human thing and there is no exception for anybody but just being human. Tara is so much aware of it. Love & gratitude to both of them lightening the way of dharma but especially lots of thanks to Tara for carrying such a great heart. In the end of some sessions I found my tears flow in joy and sacredness of being a part of the whole. Thank you for this opportunity Tara.

    • Joyce says:

      Thank you Everyone for all your comments and views. These are as important as the teaching. Your comment Yonca on how you dealt with the interchange was an inspiration for me. I am not at that space yet. Tara showed grace and compassion throughout.

    • Michelle says:

      Beautifullly said, Yonca. The message and resulting discussion are all equally important. Everyone should be able to express their viewpoint so that this very important dialogue takes place. I remind myself daily that true equality is equality on all levels, for everyone and every living thing, and that if the oppressed become the oppressor we have missed the mark. I have been extremely grateful for the messages delivered this week, and I understand that it is because of my “privilege” that I have the means of hearing these messages that so many cannot hear. Jon’s passionate message that we take a stand for our beliefs caused me to turn down a job that would have meant a much more materially comfortable year for me but that I didn’t feel good about morally. Small steps for each of us and a vision of a different world laid out by Tara and her guest speakers is an invaluable gift to all of us.

  • Lily of the Valley says:

    I notice a lot of judgment in the comments. I felt reluctant to write as in some way everything we say is a form of judgment. In reality, we are defending our own point of view, which we are entitled to, but we need to remember we are all in various stages of development on the evolutionary path and there is “more than one door” as they were saying.
    “ The truth is neither black nor white/ Sometimes is lost and found/
    To search look further than the sky/ The angel-demon dancing stage/ We call the middle ground.”

    • Lisa says:

      Lily, just to say that altho I expressed what might be considered “judgment” I am holding it all gently and was glad to have the opportunity to really see different styles of the guests. This interview was the only one thus far in which there was recurring talking over and interrupting. Just noticing! This is the only interview I found exhausting in my body. Interesting.

      • riuth says:

        I was so interested in what john had to say since he was invited by tara to offer his views
        hat I was hoping that he had enough time .
        We have been listening to Tara sharing her views
        and the interaction was very positive
        Its hard when you have something to say and you
        have limited time
        I
        T

        .

      • Kaye says:

        Same for me, rattled and reactive. It wasn’t until I read these comments I found the door. I’m giving it another go to listen. First I’m going to listen to Day 4 again, the book author spoke of Mercy rather than forgiveness, this sits comfortably with me as I navigate a parochial marriage which I enabled because I didn’t speak up. This forum is helping much. Things like “I feel my feet on the floor, I am ok, he is rude and getting angry with him is like swallowing poison and expecting him to get sick. I’m ok, there are wonderful concepts to learn from him etc. Tara was the real teacher for me, she just didn’t seem to get cross, not a bit!

  • joie says:

    1. With great difficulty, struggle, three steps forward and two back, through daily meditation and mindful walks and bike rides, and mindful volunteer work.
    2. Definitely provoked.

  • Rose says:

    Great content and food for thought from both sides but did Jon have to speak over Tara throughout?? White Male privilege in action.

    • Kay says:

      I wonder if some of the problem was due to a technical delay, and that he didn’t hear her when she tried to interject.

  • Caroline Wurmböck says:

    I get very triggered listening to Jon-kabat-zinn for the same reasons I read in other comments. And a super teaching for myself to bring this inside of myself and be present with this inner voices , struggle, judgment…..
    to listen to him is really good “ food” for my meditation .. thank you Tara for your kind open hearted way of being and your life teaching !!! ❤️

  • Tobias Schreiber says:

    Being a mindful presence with you

  • Yves says:

    I agree with Lucy’s comments. I am enjoying the overall program even though I am not a regular mindfulness practitioner. In seems to me that mindfulness ( heartfulness) somewhat lack in the area of the soul and spirit. Love is the overall common denominator.

  • Fran Belvin says:

    Wow, he talked over Tara and interrupted her throughout the interview. He was oblivious to this. Very funny, since he actually spoke about how much white people like to talk talk talk. Instead of listening. Change that to “white men,” like to talk talk., and he is doing a marvelous demonstration. I had a hard time hearing him, since I was feeling so angry. Tara seemed either unaware of the dynamic or rose above it beautifully.

    • elmo shade says:

      Totally agree. I wasn’t angry but rather surprised. Shows he is human and definitely has a “listening filter”.

    • Gaynor says:

      I agree and am so, so disappointed. Jon has always been a huge guru for me.
      Well done Tara. You are amazing. Thank you.

  • Cheryl says:

    Detaching with love, realizing that each of us parents,friends, strangers are ALL on an individual journey. Do I want to be right or do I want to be happy- both is not necessarily the answer. Animals relate by species, nothing else, why can’t the “smartest” animals of all do the same?

  • Raven says:

    Thank you, Tara. 🙏❤️

  • Erin says:

    I completely agree, Lucy. I had the same reaction and the same experience. I stopped listening with ten minutes to go. Such a contrast to earlier guests.

  • jeannie says:

    loved the energy and hope to see mindfulness practiced more in all our schools.
    As a teacher who uses mindfulness myself I feel I want to expose those who may not have income or access to formal training. Any suggestions on resources?

    • Juanita says:

      There is a free Plum Village App available. Following Plum Village Tradition started by Zen Master Thich Nhat Hahn. There are several meditations for specifically children and many more for all ages. He came up with the saying „Happy teachers can change the world.“

    • Carla Bentley says:

      internet required is all http://www.palousemindfulness.com

    • Carla Bentley says:

      Nick Ortner and the Tapping Solution foundation have an entire program for educators and schools. Check it out! TheTappingSolution.com
      I have use it myself with school aged children with some great success.

    • Toni says:

      Each day you might frame one question to the students and allow 1-2 minutes for their thoughts to wrap around it, Might become a habit 🙂

    • Mountain Bear says:

      The Work Mindful app is free, and excellent, and applies beyond “workplace” issues. Pretty sure this is how I first encountered Tara’s work.

  • jeannie says:

    loved the energy and hope to see mindfulness practiced more in all our schools.
    As a teacher who uses mindfulness myself I feel I want to expose those who may not have income or access to formal training. Any suggestions on resources?

  • Rivka says:

    What a fabulous meeting between these two great teachers! Really showed us the two wings of the Dahrma!!! Thank you so much Tara and Jon for the exceptional session!

  • Veronica says:

    Beyond powerful. Much gratitude to all who have given us this exposure to waking up. Simply put ethics, integrity, love is attention/awareness to what is. Was I aware of how I brushed my teeth, ate my breakfast, spoke to my co-workers, my thoughts. Is a family living in a car or a homeless person able be aware in this way. Probably not. But there are those of us who can. That one moment we are aware sends “love” and “gives “love” to all that is. The planet, people and the entire universe. Energy is energy. Awareness and attention is energy. Awareness is “love”. All peoples who saw this video can give, can give in the simplest way. By paying attention then listening with their heart for direction.

  • Lucy says:

    Some interesting ideas but I found it challenging listening to Jon Kabat-Zinn saying “we need to shut up and listen” in one breath and in the other talking over Tara and taking up the vast majority of space in the discussion. An interesting demonstration of male privilege in action. My emotional reaction to this meant I found it hard to take on many of the messages he was trying to share.

    • Jackie says:

      And how wonderful it is to be able to learn how Tara handled this. The contrast in approach also deepened my appreciation for Tara’s approach because it’s definitely what resonates so deeply with me and my constitution.

      • Susan Bramson says:

        Absolutely, Jackie. Me, too!

      • Laura says:

        Yes, me too, Jackie. I have spent most of my life surrounded by many people with his approach, and only just now am waking up to how deeply buried my sense has been that I ” should be more assertive” or “shouldn’t be so sensitive.” Even though I realize that my reactions to his style provide material to work with, it is also reassuring to read comments like yours and so many others on this thread!

      • Janice Allen says:

        I agree.

    • Fran Belvin says:

      Yes, sorry I didn’t read your comment before commenting. Interesting how some of us have an allergic reaction to his behavior while others seem to be fine with it….

      • jenny Frampton says:

        hi Fran 😉

      • Elsa Mendoza says:

        I didn’t have an allergic reaction to how I noticed he talked over Tara and how he interrupted her, just noticed it. I was still able to take in the wisdom and insight he shared. Tara was very poised and open and she modeled what’s possible. I think it comes from her having a deep respect and honor for the speakers.

        • Monique DiCarlo says:

          Same, same!

        • Mark Goldstein says:

          Interesting that in some ways, you, like me, maybe because of my maleness, were able to understand, “take in” what JKZ was saying because you were NOT sensitive to what many females are in our society. Those that are aware and still open-minded to fully listen are on higher ground.

    • Julia Hobson says:

      Yes! I felt all my resistance and resentment and judgments rise up of ‘older white men’ preaching from the Ivy League pulpit. It felt so hierarchical and lacking in shared wisdom synergy and heart full connection between two great teachers and leaders.. Familiar.
      I want to explore more the duality created in me by my judgments; and reflect on “2 doors, one room” to question my perception of blaming him and making him wrong/rude/dismissive .

      • Carol says:

        His Point: “I” may be DIFFERENT then “YOU”. But “WE” are “ALL HUMAN BEINGS” (ONE TOGETHER). That’s the WHOLE. That’s the BIG Picture we all should have & strive for (NON -DUALISM). Several of these presentations have been all about. “ME” & “OTHER” which is the DUALISM he talks about & will continue to divide us. Yes, we do need conversations to begin to know people who are different from us. But it should start from a Heartfelt Compassion of “WE” / “ONENESS” perspective which Mindfulness gives.

      • Mark Goldstein says:

        Elizabeth Lesser writes in her book, BROKEN OPEN: “It’s not either or, but both and more.” Seems anything we do not accept as “is” is a limitation on our part.

    • Rosemary McKittrick says:

      I agree he never “shut up and listened” in this dialogue.

      • selene says:

        Did not see that as for me they felt deeply in harmony and accord with each other throughout the communion of minds, so I put back to you ,Who is perceiving this ?

        • Esti says:

          Yes, and in that, I noticed how Tara ‘adopted’ John’s style of ‘interruption’.
          Also as expression of being in harmony and accord with him. Like a mutual permission to talk over each other:)

          Another aspect could be technology as in situations, where ‘sound delay’ plays role in creating a gap between hearing the other speak & responding. Resulting in speaking over.

          • Carole says:

            It’s known as verbal bullying. I hoped that there was a delay in their connection that caused that talking over but unfortunately there were too many instances when he ran right over Tara, apparently what he had to say was more important than being kind.

    • Amy says:

      Yes. I struggled with what appeared to me to be a feeling of superiority. White male privilege. I struggle with this in my own house and have begun tomrealize how it has turned me into a sort of martyr. This challenge is helping me to understand how I let this affect me.

      • Kay says:

        Hello Amy… I think we share a similar behavior pattern. I have a challenge Advocating for myself and being my best friend when it comes to relationships. You may want to read my post if it makes any sense to you? I would like to suggest a prayer for mindfulness that also includes being a soldier to one’s truth and personal conviction.

      • Kaye says:

        Me too. Seeing all these comments and how the challenge is shared by many of us helps me to consider getting over this. It’s new territory for me, I sucked it up while my kids grew and now I’m bitter on the inside. I’m astonished how often these sessions are moving me to tears. This one sent me to bewilderment to “Oh no, this cannot be happening, he just wouldnt do that to Tara/us and he just kept doing it. Thanks to this forum I’ll give it a go to open a different door. Mercy.

    • Pamela says:

      Me too! Thank you for your comments I was feeling the same response, yet you’ve articulated I felt. I felt talked down to rather than joined.

    • Jane says:

      How interesting, I felt the opposite. I’d tuned in to listen to Jon and found the interruptions difficult! I also found it hard to take in all the messages and will need to listen again. I will be recommending this to quite a few people,

    • Deanna says:

      I kept wishing that Tara would stop interrupting John! So we are an example, together, of needing to learn to see through each other’s eyes, perhaps.🙏🏻

      • Jiana says:

        I agree with you Deanna. I believe that Tara was attempting to simplify what Jon was saying to the listening audience and was focused on her interview agenda instead of letting it flow naturally and she did indeed interrupt him or change directions quite a few times. If it’s meant to be an interaction between two peope I’d say it was a fail but I took away so much from what he did say. I also think we need to remember how difficult it is to communicate digitally and I just think he was very excited to be there. And we all know Tara has the best intentions so I’m happy just to have the opportunity to listen to two of my favourite teachers.

        • France says:

          I have yet to listen to this interview and for some reason went straight to the comments. I love both of these teachers and was saddened to read about people’s reaction. Your comment Deanna is helpful in that it reassures me that the message is what is important, not the way it’s delivered. I, too, have found Tara struggling in these interviews and I’ve totally disregarded it because I love her and her work – she’s a teacher of meditation and compassion and she is a world class healer, and not necessiraly an interviewer.

        • Eszter says:

          I hear what you are saying on the flow of intellectual expression, yet at the same time Kabat-Zinn failed to even let Tara (the interview if you will) finish a question. I have found it rather the opposite of mindful listening and like as many others have expressed here, I have felt frustration and resentment with a man talking over a woman, at times even coming off as correcting her. It may also have to do with me at times feeling like I’m not being heard or seen, and with my attachment and awe of Tara.

    • Rebecca says:

      I must admit I am glad I am not alone in how my listening and taking some notes devolved into wondering how Jon Kabat-Zinn could continue to talk right over Tara Brach right up to the very end. On a positive note, this series has been a real gift.

    • Cara says:

      Agreed 100%.

    • Gretchen Cannady says:

      Amen! I was struck by his over zealousness and difficulty in sharing the floor with another. Maybe subconsciously because she was a women? Tara was very gracious! It is a great experience for me to see the actual personalities of the writers, activists, celebrities in real action, not just in their works, in a book or in a character.

      • Adie says:

        Wow, harsh judgement… Precisely the subject of this day, on how to engage with the other. There’s a lot to learn

      • Tiara says:

        Tara was supposed to be interviewing Jon, not the other way around – it was Tara who was interrupting – I’m not sure you understand the format of these sessions…

    • Nicole says:

      Totally agree! I had to leave the conversation…

    • Nicole says:

      Totally agree! Thank you for commenting. I signed off early…

    • Janis says:

      I absolutely agree.

    • Susan Bramson says:

      My sentiments EXACTLY, Lucy! Privileged white male in action – “man-splaining.” I know all the right words and I can talk longer and louder than you.

    • Susan Bramson says:

      Absolutely, Lucy. My sentiments exactly. Privileged white male “man-splaining.” “I can talk louder than you, drown you out and interrupt you at will.” Not a lot of sharing, but a lot of monopolizing. Also, I was picking up some aggression. Contrast this to the way Tara and Kristin Neff interacted. Night and day.

    • Sarah says:

      While I see what you mean and can understand how you felt that way, I think it’s interesting too to consider the general conversational awkwardness of talking on a webcam to someone with all the lagging and sometimes varied volume of what the video picks up. May or may not have felt a little different if they were in the same physical space but I do not know!

    • Lisa says:

      I found that hard too…he didn’t seem to be listening…they both talked over each other, so I wondered about a tech issue.

    • Jen says:

      I had the exact same response.

    • Ana says:

      As soon as there is a small time difference between two people talking over the internet, you don’t hear it when the other person starts talking too … . And that, rather than the idea that Jon would be so “dominant”, is probably what explains this. If not, Jon would do it in ALL his interviews (see YouTube), which isn’t the case at all.
      So let’s just FEEL how irritating it is to see a man talking over a woman, for us living in a society where male dominance has been the norm for centuries, how painful also … but then remember that our thoughts aren’t necessarily true, and that we don’t always have to take things personally. Sometimes a technological problem can cause things like this too.
      All the best to you – and yes, we WILL achieve full gender-equality, in the future!

    • R says:

      I was disheartened by that dynamic as well despite Jon bringing up many important ideas around this movement. I found myself feeling uncomfortable when Tara tried to get a word in and was being spoken over. A missed opportunity for real listening.

    • jules Jarvis says:

      I agree. I felt JKZ took over and was not listening to Tara.

    • Tiara says:

      Are you listening to the same session I am? Tara was supposed to be interviewing Jon, but basically took over the session. She was interrupting him, not the other way around.

    • Pat says:

      Perhaps male privilege… or perhaps something else? I totally agree that in this interview Jon Kabit-Zinn did not exemplify being present. And I agree, your observation about his inability to listen is accurate. But bless his heart… who knows what is the cause of his inattention? I believe Jon Kabit-Zinn has a tremendously good heart, with integrity that is noble. Maybe he was just having a hard day? That said… I thank you for pointing out that the emperor (of mindfulness) has no cloths on (and has blundered terribly in mindful communication). Bless his dear, sweet heart.

      I am sorry Tara did not confront Jon more directly… she seemed to be startled and disappointed… and I wish she had been more direct, and less conciliatory her in response. Jon is worthy of our respect and honoring of what he has brought to the teachings… and I believe he is also strong enough to withstand honest dialogue, which Tara did not offer. She stood down, and did not offer him compassionate confrontation… which might have benefited him and us more.

      And at the same time, I bow to Tara… Jon is worthy of kind regard. Maybe this is what she wished to offer.

      • Claudia says:

        Thank you for this balanced, thoughtful and compassionate (towards “both sides”) comment, Pat.
        I love and admire both of these teachers, and you have expressed a lot of my thoughts and feelings regarding this interview.

      • Wendy says:

        I agree with you re Tara confronting him;however, it would have been difficult and perhaps inappropriate in the format of the conversation. What I observed was a person who is deeply concerned about the direction in which our country and world are moving and wants people to take action. And I heard a person with an internal conflict between parts of himself—part of himself angry at himself for meditating and not being more of an “activist.” I hope he finds compassion for himself because imho self-compassion dissipates anger at oneself and others.
        Because of this I saw Tara being compassionate toward him rather than becoming angry or confronting him. She was modeling what true self-compassion looks like and how it precludes anger. When we are able to do what Tara did we can use our energy to make a difference re the issues he was upset about. I think also his anger was from pain and grief about his and other’s grandchildren’s futures.

    • Kirrin says:

      Yes! I was holding my breath every time Tara spoke because I was so aware that she was unlikely to be able to finish her thought. It felt disrespectful.

    • Louie says:

      I thought I was the only one who observed this. I watched her conversation with Elizabeth Gilbert before this and it was a genuine exchange of ideas with no one talking over the other. I found it hard to digest the message. The virtual space in which they’re speaking might have something to do with this. Disappointing just the same.

    • Paula says:

      I think it may have been hard for him to hear, he was excited to be there and felt passion about helping the world, and it is very difficult with technology to “time” the responses just right. I noticed on Sandra Oh’s interview that sometimes what she was saying would cut out when Tara was just murmuring “mmm hmm”, so I would miss half of Sandra’s sentence. So it’s not easy with the slight delay of microphones and technology. I think Tara handled it beautifully with grace. I had to listen to it again, as unfortunately I had read people’s comments ahead and so was “listening” for where he was talking over her rather than what he had to say. Fortunately I gave it a second try a couple of days later, told myself there were other potential explanations and to just ignore that part, and really enjoyed what he had to actually say.

    • Grace Archer says:

      Yes, I hear you Lucy and feel the same: triggered and shocked by Jon speaking over Tara and not listening. Feel a bit saddened, and also in awe and respect of how Tara maintains respect and heart fullness. I bow to Tara and the embodiment of the deep Feminine.

    • Carole says:

      I so agree. Am still listening right now and thought I’d scroll the comments to see if anyone else felt this way or am I just reactive! I found JKZ to be so overbearing and self-righteous … at least I now know after hearing about him for decades, he’s not a teacher of interest for me. Felt sorry for sweet Tara to have to sit through his barrage.

    • Janice Allen says:

      I agree.

    • ellenkglatt@gmail.com says:

      I had similar reactions. I found him difficult to listen to. He boasted, dominated and rambled. I wondered if he may have been unwilling to participate or pressured or rushed. It appeared rude.

  • nigel says:

    What a ‘syncronistic’ moment!! I’m British living in France and am suffering from ‘Brexit’, it was refered to in todays’ talk. Because of brexit I learnt yesterday that we British had lost our right vote in the forthcoming municipal elections here in France. I went into a sort of panic, loss of freedoms, loss of rights, loss of all sorts of things etc. I tried the breath with a little success and then settled into a 20 minute mindful meditation which helped somewhat. The question of ‘how to remain sane’ crossed my mind last night after the meditation. I felt disappointed with myself, I’ve be meditating for perhaps 4 or 5 years now and following Tara and Jacks’ Mindful work for over a year. I tried RAIN and identified the fears of loss, abandonment and poverty again. I have a strong feeling of my higher self when in reasonable shape but last night was something else, I totally lost it! After I post this I shall return to my meditation practice and we shall see. This course is wonderful and all the interviews are so thought provoking, I thank from the bottom of my heart Tara and all the contributors. And Love to all the participants.

    • catherine says:

      Oui, individuellement notre souffrance et grande. Nigel, je le lis à travers les mots livrés ici. Et s’ il s’agissait de ne pas se considérer comme Britannique, Français, Américain, ou Australien ou Africain, Japonais, Homme ou Femme, noir ou blanc que sais-je encore? Si là, là précisément où ça cogne dure, c’était ici, maintenant, que nous pouvions véritablement changer de point de vue. Être avant tout des êtres vivants où et qui que nous soyons sur terre, et connaître combien la souffrance vient de la séparation sous toutes ses formes… Oui l’humain fabrique avec ses vieux schémas, du Brexit et toutes sortes d’autres moyens de confirmer cette fausse vue : que les uns sont différents des autres, que certains sont meilleurs que d’autres, parce qu’ils sont d’ici et non pas d’ailleurs…
      STOP, cette vision ne mêne nul part !! Nous le savons ! La pratique de la Pleine Conscience qui mêne l’humanité vers sa réalisation véritable, invite, exige de se savoir sur le même navire que quiconque, de réaliser la magnificence de cette planète où chacun touche la Grâce de Vivre de moment en moment tant que le souffle le traverse. La Vraie nature du Vivant unit tous les êtres vibrants et ce, dès maintenant, là où chacun se trouve, exactement ici.
      Se “désidentifier” de SA nationalité semble ici la voie ultime pour vraiment avancer dans le nouveau monde dont nous parle Jon.
      La souffrance est partout – la beauté, la grâce d’exister est aussi là. Cela fait suffisamment longtemps que nous vivons dans la discrimination, dans la séparation, en nous intéressant surtout à notre dimension historique. L’invitation de Jon et de Tara est un renversement radical. Par delà toute séparation, nous sommes unis. Incarner dès maintenant la Paix d’un esprit unifié, là où tout invite à pester; quel défis! Puissions-nous œuvrer en ce sens. Soutien du Dharma. Chemin sans complaisance.

      • Summer says:

        Is there a way to translate your post to English,Catherine? I am not very tech savvy, but really interested in how Brexit is affecting everyone in Europe

        • Ana says:

          She’s basically saying that we can try to not identify with our nationality so much, and accept that suffering is everywhere. Losing our political rights, for instance, is something that happens to so many people, in so many different places – not only to the British in France. And as in the end, we are all one, the suffering of those voting FOR Brexit is basically the same as ours too, even if it comes in a different “form”. If it’s ME who’s losing my political rights, I can easily feel a separation between me and those voters, and be angry at them. A dharma practice invites us to acknowledge that anger, NOT judge ourselves for feeling it, AND to then remember that the delusion that caused Brexit is human too, and that we too suffer from delusion, many times a day. What we need is to go sit and talk and listen to Brexit voters, all while not forgetting that both they and we ourselves are so much bigger than our negative emotions or nationality. Something like that … ?

          • nigel says:

            Thank you for this contribution Ana, it confirms my translation of Catherine’s answer to me. May I assume you are english? I need to think deeper than I can at the moment as I can feel the feelings of both ‘sides’ are far deeper than we can imagine, much more so than the mere politics and the motives that are driving this amputation. For many of my generation who were born either during the WW2 or at end of it, it feels like a backwards step in the evolution of Europe as a peace loving state and constructive step in understanding our differing cultures and securing peace for the future, at least in Europe. My best wishes,

    • Pat says:

      Dear Nigel… I am but an ignorant American… don’t know what it is to be British in France suffering from Brexit… but I understand panic about loss of freedom & rights, and not knowing how to proceed. I resonate with fears of loss and abandonment, and poverty. You are not alone in this boat. I take heart from your post, knowing that I am not alone. I am grateful to you for your dedicated practice which reminds me, I am among good people dedicated to continue to care deeply. Thank you… and blessings in friendship.

    • pam says:

      metta nigel …. it now is what it is

  • Sue Cross says:

    Absolutely fabulous, thank you both. Beautiful pointing.
    John is another at the fantasy dinner party.

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